Inside CCW Safe Podcast- Episode 27: Decisions feat. Steve Moses

In this episode, Stan and Mike talk to Steve Moses about the decisions we make as concealed carriers.  The three talk about everything from carrying a firearm, to the decisions we make while carrying, including complex decisions regarding self defense.  

The full transcription of this podcast is below. 

Speaker 1: 00:01 Welcome to the Inside CCW Safe Podcast, with founders Stan Campbell and Mike Darter. If you're forced to fight the battle for your life, CCW Safe will fight the battle for your future.

Mike: 00:11 Alright, welcome back to the Inside CCW Safe Podcast, I'm Mike Darter in Oklahoma City.

Stan: 00:26 Stan Campbell, I'm in Los Angeles today and the weather is fair, Michael.

Mike: 00:31 It's fair?

Stan: 00:33 It's fair.

Mike: 00:34 It's still cold here, man. Think we're gonna get snow here this weekend maybe. Or ice [crosstalk 00:00:39] somethin' somethin' somethin'.

Mike: 00:40 How's mama Mona doin'?

Stan: 00:43 You know, we haven't talked about mama Mona in a while.

Mike: 00:44 I know!

Stan: 00:46 She's still in the Dallas area, metro area. She relocated and she's doin' well, you know. I put that app on her phone so that I can keep track of where she is, so, you know it's really helpful especially if she ever has any emergencies and such, but she laughs, she gets tickled when I just call her out of the blue and say, "Oh, so you washin' your car now?", "Oh, so you at the Subway? Better be havin' something healthy!", so she loves the fact that I can follow her around and stalk her, so yeah. It's fun, but it's safe. If you guys have not seen the app, it's 360, right Mike?

Mike: 01:27 Yeah, Life360.

Stan: 01:28 Yeah, Life360 is a great app if you wanna really keep track of your family members and they can hit a panic-type button and let everybody know where they are, so it's awesome. I love it.

Mike: 01:44 Yeah, it's what I use with the girls in the past. So I have officially made a proposal to stay in, to add a mama Mona moment to our podcast where we call mama Mona, we present her with either situational awareness things or questions from our members.

Mike: 02:16 That's in the works, man. We're gonna have [inaudible 00:02:19] for mama Mona moments.

Stan: 02:21 Yeah, she's so sweet, but she really hasn't still just common sense.

Mike: 02:26 Oh man, yeah, she's got the common sense.

Stan: 02:29 She really does, I mean a lot of these questions and not all of them from members, some of them are from customers and some of them can get really outrageous just with the scenarios and we gonna allow mama Mona to answer the questions, "What if I see a baby with an AK47 pointing it at a grandmother?"

Mike: 02:46 "What if somebody chasin' me, tryin' to beat me with a dead squirrel?"

Stan: 02:51 Yes. We'll let mama Mona answer those.

Mike: 02:55 Well speaking of common sense, we have Steve Moses is on today, from Texas.

Steve: 03:01 Hey guys.

Mike: 03:01 And Steve's got some awesome articles recently. How you doin' Steve?

Steve: 03:06 Oh, I'm doin' well. I'm doin' well. It's good to be back talkin' to you guys.

Mike: 03:10 How's the weather in Texas? East Texas?

Steve: 03:13 Nasty.

Mike: 03:14 Is it?

Steve: 03:15 Nasty. Cold, damp, wet, you know, so, it's kind of a almost a sub-tropic environment here. It's very beautiful and everything, but the humidity is pretty high and when these cold fronts that come through Oklahoma and [inaudible 00:03:29] you guys get down here, we're not frigid, we're just miserable.

Mike: 03:34 Yeah, that's what it is here.

Steve: 03:38 Just miserable.

Mike: 03:40 So what are we talking about today Stan?

Stan: 03:43 Well today, I decided to ... we're having Steve Moses, he submitted a piece of writing that we were gonna look at as a article, but I thought that be so much better as a topic of discussion for the podcast, especially on the cuffs of having David Darter here, you don't know [crosstalk 00:04:06] last week we had Dave Darter talking about different things that comes up during customer service and question and stuff that we get a lot Steve. So we were kinda answering some of those scenario type questions and when I saw your submission I said, "Oh no. That's perfect for our topic of discussion today."

Stan: 04:31 Steve if you can kinda introduce what that is and why you even chose that topic.

Steve: 04:41 The title of the article I wrote was Boring Article, Serious Subject. It is kinda come to my mind where I've seen people carrying handguns in areas and locations where they probably shouldn't. Citing that old Maxim, "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6." I kinda got, "I really don't want to put myself in to a position where I am a D judged by 12 and perhaps I might lose my rights to possess a concealed handgun. Or worse, end up in prison." This is something that I've seen quite frequently and while I'm very much a believer that we should be armed to the extent that we can, it needs to be done lawfully and it needs to be done with some common sense.

Steve: 05:41 There are areas where it's basic, like in Texas, where concealed carry is banned, but by the same token, it's a criminal trespass issue primarily if you are accosted or that is discovered and then you're asked to vacate the premises and you do not do so. The penalty for that I don't consider to be something significant, we can always go back and leave. We can choose not to go to those kind of places. But on occasion there are places where all of us, I don't care who you are, need to go where being able to have a concealed handgun on your person is a bad idea, perhaps for a variety of reasons.

Mike: 06:31 And you know, we talked about that a little bit on the podcast, the last podcast with David, but there's also one other thing that I think we, everybody really needs to be honest with themselves about and this is Pat McNamara actually put it on his Instagram one day. Just because you have a gun does not mean you are armed. [crosstalk 00:06:58] And I think everybody needs to be, I mean including me, I mean everybody needs to be realistic and honest with themselves on if you're, just because you have a firearm does not mean you're armed.

Steve: 07:17 That's right.

Stan: 07:20 I love how he put that because you can take that in a couple of different ways because you can talk about mindset, that being relevant to mindset, that being relevant to your physical abilities to even defend your weapon or pull it out without somebody taking it from you, or the fact that you don't train at all.

Mike: 07:40 Right.

Stan: 07:41 There are so many different ways you can look at that so. Qaeda is on it there. Thanks for bringing that up Mike. Hey before we get too far, also 'cause I know Steve is gonna keep talking, I wanted to remind everybody Steve talked about that. As far as CCW Safe members, please understand this is a reminder. I think I did it last week, but I'm a do it again. As far as no gun zones, you will be outside of the scope of coverage if you are in a place where it is a felony or misdemeanor in itself to possess a firearm on the premises, okay. You will also be out of coverage if you challenge someone on private property, you know what I mean as a business owner or representative and you refuse to leave that property, standing up for second amendment rights, but deciding to take on that misdemeanor charge or trespassing. Those are the areas that you will not be covered.

Stan: 08:49 Now, if you are walking out after someone told you to leave and Isis comes in or Al-Qaeda, and you save the day we will cover you. If you're on the premises where you accidentally bypass a sign or they didn't have one up, and they didn't tell you to leave and someone comes in and robs the place and such, then you will be covered for that incident, defending yourself or another. I had to get that in because everybody calls in on that and they really want to know. Not to say, I know it seems like it happens a lot nationally, and we're not gonna say it not on the rise, but it doesn't happen as much and there's nothing wrong with people calling and having concerns about, "will you cover me if?", please understand that like Mike said, be armed. In those three areas, training, have your mindset right, and the physical ability to sustain that fight and protect your weapon. Go ahead Steve.

Steve: 10:00 Those are all excellent points. Those are very good points. One of the other things that occurred to me when I was thinking about writing this article is that in many instances there's places where it's just a bad idea to have your handgun on your person. If you're someone who's gonna go to a Superbowl party or go out to a bar and basically "Okay I don't have my handgun on my person while I'm actually in that place, but on the way back to wherever I came from, I do have my handgun on my place and I'm under the influence of alcohol," and if you're stopped that is a serious incident in and of itself and if you're forced to use any kind of force in order to defend yourself and it's later determined that "wow. You were under the influence of alcohol," that can be a big problem. To that end, I just thought we really need to exercise some good judgment when we go about our life. Life is not without risk. Every time we drive to a grocery store or we get on an airplane or anything else, there's always the risk that something can happen, but it many instances we can to some effect mitigate that risk by having good judgment, making good decisions, and following through.

Steve: 11:33 One of the things that I do know that a lot of concealed carriers do, actually I should say concealed carriers, I'll just say people do is they store their handguns in their vehicles. I believe there I read, let me see there, I think it was the guardian said, I can't recall the year, might have been like 2015 or so, that between 300,000 and 600,000 firearms reported as stolen. As people now have the right to carry guns on their person, what we're seeing is we're seeing a lot more guns in vehicles.

Steve: 12:16 People go to a place they go, "Well, I can't carry my gun in there. I'm just gonna stick it under here, under the car seat in the console, in the glove compartment and leave it. Then they're somewhat horrified when they come back and they see typically a window broken out, snatch and grab took place, and now that gun is missing.

Stan: 12:40 Yeah. That's terrible.

Steve: 12:43 It is bad. It is bad.

Mike: 12:46 That's one thing I looked at early on when we first started CCW Safe was different. At one time we had a little video on there, kinda some different products but, yeah you think about people just putting it in between the seat and the column or whatever. If you get in a wreck, that thing could be a flying object through that car.

Stan: 13:14 Projectile.

Mike: 13:15 I've gotten to where I've gotten the console vault in both my trucks now. Steve I don't know if you've heard of Gold Star Holsters?

Stan: 13:28 No I have not.

Mike: 13:29 They have a really cool deal that they sent one out. I'm actually ordering one for my P365, but they have a under the steering wheel where column now holstered that is actually like a Kydex holster. It's pretty cool. Those are the two that I would strongly recommend, vault or whatever for the console vaults and then this one is really cool. Actually I have, they sent me one for a Glock 19, Steve, I'm gonna send it down. Actually when you come up next week I'll get it to you.

Stan: 14:09 Okay. That sounds good, why don't you take a look at it. I'll take a look it at it.

Mike: 14:12 Yeah it's awesome. It's awesome. So is that what you, what do you use, Steve?

Steve: 14:18 Well actually when I'm in my car I keep my handgun on my person. I keep it in a holster. If something happens, I know where that handgun is going to be. I don't feel like "Okay. Oh where's that handgun?" So I'm trying to find it under bad circumstances. To that end, I keep my handgun on my person. I typically carry appendix which is very easy to drive with. If you get a good holster and you actually put the bottom of the seatbelt over the holster, blouse your shirt over it and then if for some reason you're forced to use your handgun while you're still in your car, it's there.

Steve: 15:05 However, when I go to leave my car I want that handgun completely out of sight. There's some really inexpensive options for doing this. I mean some of them start at less than $30. They're just super lock boxes. They're made of metal. They're padded. They have a three digit combination lock and they come with a cable that allows you to loop the cable around the frame of your automobile seat so that you can then store the handgun in there, lock it, and put it underneath your car seat. Some of these are relatively inexpensive under $30. They go up in price and probably robustness. Probably the more robust they are, the more they're going to defy any attempt to open 'em.

Steve: 16:05 For the most part, people that break into and enter into cars, burglarize cars, they're moving pretty fast. They don't have the tools it would take to free that storage safe from it. I don't wanna say you can't break in to it, but it's gonna be pretty difficult. Most of you know, burglars don't carry around a set of bolt cutters, those are hard to explain in the event that you run into a police officer, especially if you have a background. But something just as small as that can go a long ways towards securing a handgun inside of a vehicle.

Steve: 16:46 Yeah, that's awesome.

Mike: 16:48 I've had those that have the cable that wrap around like seat post lock into it ... Yep, yep.

Steve: 16:56 Yes sir. One of the things I might add is that it requires discipline in order to always do this. Having good intentions and then failing to following through, that's not gonna get you what you want. It may take a little bit of time in order to get that handgun safely out of the holster or however you carry it. Basically, something I've really encouraged all of our listeners to do is to make sure that you have taken some formal training from a qualified instructor so you know how to get handguns in and back into the holster safely.

Stan: 17:37 That's right.

Steve: 17:38 You have to do it the same way every single time. It needs to be done so that trigger finger is straight, you're concentrating on what you're doing, you're not multi-tasking. And when you withdraw that handgun and you insert that handgun back into the holster, you don't wanna be muzzling any of your own body parts.

Stan: 17:57 That's right. You know we had a member just recently send a email, I think I shared it with you Steve, in which he listened to you the last time you were on the podcast and he signed up for one of your classes 'cause I think he was just within 30 miles of you.

Steve: 18:15 That's correct.

Stan: 18:16 It got just like Steve said and I'll have him again share a list of qualified instructors, firearms instructors, that he would use or that he has gone to their classes and actually verified that they are legit or significant in the industry. Make sure we'll share that stuff with you, as well.

Stan: 18:41 But like Steve said, it's absolutely important to get that training. I train police officer 15 years and even they don't have as much time as they should on protecting their firearm, getting it in and out of the holster, establishing that "muscle memory" and preparing for someone that is intentional about hurting you. That doesn't happen to often in your lifetime, but a traumatic attack when someone that is really, they have that thing, either some liquid courage I call alcohol, or some type of drug that takes them to a place where they're not thinking sensibly or they're just have decided that you are the target and they're gonna execute an attack ... It doesn't happen often, but when it does you have to be ready to go beyond just verbal commands. Something you might have to be prepared to do, especially for a surprise attack or ambush type situation, you have to be prepared to respond to these things.

Stan: 20:00 Seek out a lot of training on the range. Go ahead and invest into a training firearm, I'm talkin' maybe a little rubber gun or something like that that's similar to what you carry and then you and your buddies get together in a safe manner just wrestle around. Get out the house and put it some time where somebody's trying to get your weapon so you can figure out what am I gonna do?

Stan: 20:29 In case and point, I was really hard on the officers. If there's any listening, they really, you'll vouch for this. I was hard on the officers and I would literally, this is no joke, some of the other instructors look at me like I was crazy, but I would slap them so hard when I get on their gun and they wouldn't knock my hand off of it. Just something as simple as that. So I would hit 'em and give them some physical encouragement so that they know that this is serious. There's a couple of training recruits that I made cry, boys and girls. I made 'em cry, but it's so that you train in a sterile environment and as much as you can try to make it so that this is real.

Stan: 21:14 You need to practice the fight for your life so that you know when you actually do, you can handle a three minute fight or protect your weapon, or even while you on the ground, try to figure out how would I pull it out of my holster if someone is on top of me. How do I adjust my body? These are really really important things that we spend really not enough time. You still need to spend a lot of time on the range and in target shooting, but no one spends time trying to figure out, what would actually happen if? What would I do? Same thing with the training weapon, I keep saying training weapon because I don't want nobody accidentally shooting their friend. What would I do if I just parked somewhere in my garage and someone opened up my door and came inside my drivers side door and pinned me to my passenger side door where I couldn't get my firearm out and I still got my seatbelt on. These are those things that don't happen often, but when they do, if you have a plan you got a better chance of surviving attack like that.

Steve: 22:18 That's actually awesome, awesome advice. I'm glad you said that. That's something that should probably be discussed in a future article or podcast. Having the experience and the skills and the ability what Stan is referring to, not only does it better prepare you for such an incident, it also puts you in a position where if you have those skills and you know how you would probably properly respond, it makes one less likely to prematurely go to the handgun when they think "Wow, this person is about to unleash some violence on me. My only response is gonna be I go to my handgun, and then it turns out I was wrong. There was video I did it prematurely. Now I'm facing a brandishment issue."

Stan: 23:14 Oh we've had several of those. Really, these people, they were lucky Steve, that we had the resources to handle their mistake. You guys gotta be careful out there because those mistakes cost 10,000 to start with and then it goes up from there. If you dip too far away from us and go outside of coverage, then you're on your own and that sucks. We want to do everything in our power to take care of you and that's why we give you guys these articles and podcasts and different things so you can learn from the mistakes of others. Learn from the challenges of others. Don't make you that guy because that guy, it hurts when somebody says "Will the defendant please stand." Nobody wants to hear that. Nobody.

Stan: 24:09 Be mindful of those things and before Steve steps back in, I passed up a few things that they said something significant, he and Mike. I'm one when I'm in the car I like to carry on hip as well, but I too, I carry secondary weapons. I have a real nice seven, eight inch, I think it's an eight inch knife that my door, right inside my drivers side door, I have an additional one over on my passenger side and some other thing I hold up in different areas of my car so that if I do get pushed down somewhere and Michael calls it, what did you say? I ball up into a fetal position? I'm a pretty tough guy but, if I get caught slippin', I know that if I got pushed into a fetal position, which is not my go to position, but if I got pushed into a fetal position because someone got the jump on me at the gas station or whatever, I fall into a position and a space where there's another weapon that I'm gonna do some major damage so that I can get to my gun. So those are things you guys to think about-

Steve: 25:29 That's awesome.

Stan: 25:29 Plus, Steve talked about carrying a gun in places where you cannot, or not carrying because you know you can't carry a firearm. But don't forget those who are CCW Safe members, we cover you for any legal weapon. If you can't carry a firearm and you have another legal weapon or weapon of opportunity or even physical force to defend the life of yourself or another, we got you covered. That's one of the reasons why when Mike and I designed these models and the police union model, we made sure that we said "Okay. We need to cover these guys like we had coverage when we were in the police department." There were times we couldn't use, like at the state fair, there's so many people that you wouldn't dare pull your gun out and start shooting in that direction where there's a suspect, plus 50 people behind 'em depending on your distance.

Stan: 26:27 There's other things that we have to have or weapons of opportunity have been used to take a life on the police department with like flashlights and such. A lot of officers had to feel people flashlights. These two of the things that we would if there was cement screw you had to pick up and defend your life, we got you. We got you covered. Anyway, that's what I kinda wanted to talk about coverage. The people, they really like to know how deep that goes, Steve. So go ahead and continue sir.

Steve: 26:56 Excellent. Well one of the things I kinda wanted to touch on is that the inexpensive safes that I'm referring to. While they should secure a firearm in most instances, they're not quick access. If you want something that's quick access and also secure, then you're probably looking at additional funds and I have zero issue with that. One of the things that I do kinda like about these more inexpensive lock boxes with the cable is that if you are staying in a place other than your home, let's say for instance it's a travel trailer, it's a hotel room, and you want to be able to secure our handgun from reasonable efforts to have it stolen or to keep children from accessing it, this same lock box can be used to secure the handgun, loop the cable around the doorframe. I'm sure that listeners can find other ways to do that, but that also affords you another means of keeping that handgun secure when it's not on your person.

Steve: 28:13 Something that's really important is whether you store a handgun in a vehicle or not. I try to avoid stickers and decals that say things such as "I don't call 911", "Driver only carries $20 worth of ammunition", I try to keep those kinda decals off my vehicle because I think that's just kind of a advertisement that says burglarize me first. I think that's probably a good way to go and also it just makes common sense. Don't leave other items out there that either have decals on your vehicle, but you have like uh you left your cell phone out there. You left the obvious charging cord for maybe a garment or a TomTom or a purse. Or anything that looks like it might hold something of value because it doesn't take any time at all for an experienced criminal to break into your car, grab that particular item, and they're gone. I mean, car alarms are such that we hear 'em going off all the time and what happens when we hear a car alarm going off in a parking lot most of the time? We ignore it.

Stan: 29:32 We disregard it, yeah.

Steve: 29:33 Somebody was looking for their vehicle. The thing is, anything you can kinda do to keep your vehicle sort of under the radar, be kind of the gray man if you will, I think that helps. The other thing too is think about where you're gonna park your car. Think about it in advance. Are there locations where your car is more likely to be broken into than others? Give that some thought. The closer I can get to a store entrance when I park, that's a good thing. I like parking under lights. I just try to take all those things into consideration that is just not a good idea to put your handgun in a position where others can get it. The numbers, a matter of fact, I believe it was in Memphis that I think the number is over a thousand handguns possibly, or firearms are stolen from vehicles every year.

Stan: 30:35 Oh my god.

Steve: 30:35 That is, people are losing a lot of guns. In some instances from what I understand, people are leaving handguns in cars and the cars are unlocked.

Stan: 30:48 That's right.

Steve: 30:48 Just take all this in to consideration. These gun safes are not that expensive and a little bit of foresight can really save you a lot of trouble later.

Stan: 30:59 That's right.

Mike: 31:00 Hey Steve, can those boxes also the safes, the small safes, can those also be used to transport on planes? Do you know what the policy of that by chance?

Steve: 31:15 I'm gonna say that the small ones probably can. I probably need to verify that. I believe that I read that that is the case. But that's also a very, very good way to secure a hand gun, I think the main thing is TSA need to be able to access it. And I'm not sure exactly how that would work with the three digit combinations. By the same token, when I fly I use a three digit combination padlock. I know TSA can access those, but I'm not sure if that's the case on this. We probably just need to check that out before answering.

Stan: 31:54 Yeah, make sure you check the rules and regulations associated with each airline that you fly 'cause all of them a little bit different. Also, to piggyback what Steve was just making reference to, I've said this in other podcasts as well, have a plan when you leave your house. There's two things that you shouldn't do at night. Plan to do them during the day. That is to get gas and go to the ATM so that you have a better chance of not being targeted.

Stan: 32:26 The other thing, even if you have these boxes and stuff like that, I always say you stopping at the mall, you stop somewhere, if it's a planned stop, stop about two blocks away. Pull over to the side, put your gun in your box, put your purses in your trunk so that people don't see you do these things when you pull up to the mall, and different stuff like that because the greatest point of vulnerability is when you're trying to concentrate on how to store your firearm. Now you've got your head down and doin' different things like that. When you get to the store, you should be ready just to pop out, look around, like Steve said, find a great spot to park, look around make sure there's no strange looking people out, or people out of place. Then get out and go in to the store, making sure your stuff is locked up and there's nothing visible to be stolen. Thanks Steve for all that.

Steve: 33:26 Excellent point. Excellent, excellent point.

Stan: 33:28 Well Steve I have a million of 'em. Thank you.

Steve: 33:40 I don't doubt. And anyway, a big part of it is kinda look at the overall picture. Life in many ways in kind of a strategy. It's like okay, my ultimate plan here is I want to be as trained as I can. I want my practice to have been current. I want to be familiar with the laws regarding the use of force, regardless of where I am. When I'm out in the public, to the extent that I can, I want to be armed. When I can't do that, I want my guns secured. I want to minimize the time that I'm at at-risk locations. Sometimes I realize that cannot be avoided. But, the main thing is just kinda try to use common sense and then in addition to common sense, this is one of the things I really try to drive home with my students, is then you've got to use discipline. When you're tired, or it's raining, or you're cold, or you wanna get something done, saying "You know what? I'm just not gonna do what I know is smart this time," I think that's a slippery slope that you're going down to.

Steve: 34:53 I just really encourage all the listeners, I would encourage this to anybody, is just use good judgment, but then always, always, always, follow through if you can.

Stan: 35:05 That's right. Michael you're up.

Mike: 35:11 I'm just listening, man.

Stan: 35:16 Listen, you know you got a million things to say.

Steve: 35:20 Stan, I have something to say.

Stan: 35:22 Uh oh.

Steve: 35:24 This is going back to the comment you made about the use of a defensive knife.

Stan: 35:30 Yes, sir.

Steve: 35:31 I absolutely subscribe to that. I keep a knife on my person any time I'm not in the hospital doin' somethin' related to being a nose guy. I keep a knife on my person. The ability to use that as a force multiplier, especially for females who in many ways a lot of them are assaulted way different than males are. A lot of times with females, and this is maybe even true for smaller males, is that the other person is more prone to just using physical force in order to force their will and get what they want, as opposed to the threat of using a handgun in order to accomplish that. Having that knife on your person, close access, and having it in a position where I can access it or it can be accessed relatively quickly, and knowing how to use it when you're in an entangled situation, man those are awesome skills. If you have that ability in order to do that and you have nothing in your hands more than a really robust stainless steel ink pen, you're well armed.

Stan: 37:01 Absolutely.

Steve: 37:01 You can do a lot of damage with that ink pen in terms of putting the other person in a situation where they're forced to break contact or they can't continue doing whatever it was when they were attempting to injure you, sexually assault you, or kill you for that matter.

Stan: 37:22 That's right. Hey Mike what is the name of the ... The name just escapes me. What's the name of the bracelet that you and I wear?

Mike: 37:35 Oh, the underarm, I mean the Leatherman Tread?

Stan: 37:36 Yes, that's right. The Leatherman Tread, if you don't know what that is, pick one up because it's a very, very cool looking piece and it has a lot of tools and stuff on it, but I wear it a lot because it too, I've learned how to adjust it to make it a impromptu weapon. It's one of my favorite ones to wear on the planes. I open it open and drop it down to almost cover my knuckles if I had to deal with something like that. There's a different way you can carry it with the tools that you can use as almost a cutting type device to defend yourself if somebody got you wrapped up and they tryin' to go for your gun and you take it and you just kinda rip a portion of skin across the top of their forehead and make 'em bleed into their eye. Poke and do anything you need to do. You really have to have the mindset to say, "if you're going for my gun, I am going to bite pieces of your cheek out. I'm gonna pull your eyeball out." You gotta be ready to do all those things.

Stan: 38:45 When I talked about the training and the academy, I'm really not playing about that. One of those individuals who could not get me off of his gun, five years later, he answered a call here in Oklahoma City in which he was attacked. It was a robbery call and they said the guy only had a knife so he got out, he wasn't prepared. The guy ended up physically attacking him, taking his gun from him, standing over top of the officer, and shooting at him while he was on the ground. While he twisted and turned, only the hand of God saved that officer from being injured 'cause that guy was right above him and he wasn't shot. The bottom line to the story is it's very serious. You are carrying around a tool of death and destruction and you need to act like it. You need to be able to protect it. Think about these different things. Pick up the pens, the things that can be used as impromptu weapons to protect yourself in the secondary.

Steve: 40:09 You know Stan, there was actually a tactical pen that I saw at the shot show this year called the Impromptu.

Stan: 40:17 Really? Pull that out.

Steve: 40:19 Yes, it's made by Gerber. It's actually a decent writing instrument. It actually is one of the click pens so it's not one of the ones you have to take it in two pieces and everything. Something like that in your hand, especially if you know how to use it and your target is forehead and eyes, that's a pretty awesome tool for doing that. If you don't have anything else, especially recommend this to people that are having to walk to their cars at nighttime after dark. Just simply having that pen in your hand and an understanding of few very, very basic moves can go a long ways towards making sure that you're less likely to be injured or worse.

Stan: 41:14 I love that. I think I'm a get that one. I just saw a picture of it on the internet.

Mike: 41:19 Yeah, I pulled it up. I pulled it up too while [crosstalk 00:41:22]

Stan: 41:22 Impromptu technical pen.

Steve: 41:24 Yes, sir.

Stan: 41:25 I like those.

Steve: 41:25 Yeah, you're timing is awesome.

Stan: 41:28 Yeah I actually keep something similar to that on my visor, but I like that one. I'm a get that.

Stan: 41:37 Oh, thank you sir. Yeah, you know what you're right. That's one of those things, what can I carry on the airplane?

Stan: 41:42 You guys, it's really important to do all these things and to prepare. Always remember, Steve talked about it before in one of his last podcast about training with jiu jitsu and some type of martial arts and keeping yourself physically ready to defend yourself. No matter how old you get, you have to figure it out for your body type and what you do to be able to defend yourself. Don't just walk around and grow old into a victim. Get yourself ready and do what you can to survive. Just really important to seek out these instructors. Physical martial arts type training should go side by side with firearms training. It's a close cousin and it too will save your life. You have to do these things.

Mike: 42:38 Yeah and I would just tell people too, look back over some of our articles, especially from Steve. In the podcast we had Steve on not too long ago, we talked one about gear. But also Bob O'Connor, his series. If you just search Bob O'Connor you'll pull up some of his articles as well. You have one on the principles of concealed carry and one being mindset. So we definitely have things on our side that can kind of point you in the right direction. Ultimately it's going to come down to you as a concealed carrier, taking it upon yourself to do some of these things that we're recommending because I do strongly believe everything we've said here today, I totally believe in. When I saw that post by Mac it was like, it's so true that just because-

Stan: 43:46 [crosstalk 00:43:46] Mac's social media, he'd be great to follow because-

Mike: 43:50 Yeah, he would.

Stan: 43:50 We're talking about a hero in training. I don't know anybody that goes as hard as Mac.

Mike: 43:57 I think it is ... let me look it up right quick. TMA on Instagram, he does a lot of stuff on Instagram and it is TMACSINC. That's Pat McNamara. He's got some really good drills and for law enforcement he's got some great shooting drills with sandbags and doing things along with the shooting. I haven't seen much of those on there lately. He had a lot of those in the past.

Stan: 44:42 Yeah he's mixing up, but you definitely need to follow him. He's the real deal and you talk about extreme training, you just take what he does and kinda dumb it down for your body type and level. You can really, really increase your abilities just by getting a lot of that stuff done. It's really hard to not train static, but it really is important to raise your heart rate because if somebody surprise attacks you, everything is gonna shut down and your body is gonna prepare for trauma. So your body prepares for war, but in doing so there's things happening in your body that you're not gonna be able to control, so you gotta try to recreate that or get it as close as you can to that and see how you respond when you shoot a firearm at that time. Those are really, really important to do so find people.

Stan: 45:41 You know Pat and you know of course Vicars and all the rest of our guys. Jeff Gonzalez and Spalding and some of the others that we subscribe to and that are associated with CCW Safe as well. Just find these trainers and put in the work. Put in the work so that when you get attacked, you don't have to.

Mike: 46:02 And speaking of, we're actually having Larry on next week, I believe.

Stan: 46:07 That's right. [crosstalk 00:46:09]

Mike: 46:10 I'll reach out to Pat too and probably get him on.

Stan: 46:13 That would be awesome.

Mike: 46:15 He's got a really good deal talking about personal protection detail, controlling your own personal protection detail. And he's got some really good-

Stan: 46:30 Be your own body guard.

Mike: 46:31 Short videos on those. What was that?

Steve: 46:38 I think you said being your own body guard.

Stan: 46:40 Yeah, be your own body guard. But it derives from the sentinel, correct Mike?

Mike: 46:46 Yeah, he has a book called the Sentinel that I would say if you haven't read that, get it. You can get it on Amazon. I think you can get a digital format, it's just a short read. It's a very short read, but it's just on being your own sentinel for you and your family. Developing personal protection details, plans, and it's just a great blueprint for your own personal safety plans.

Stan: 47:20 Absolutely.

Mike: 47:22 Lets talk about, are there any other social media that you follow, Steve, that you would recommend for people?

Steve: 47:36 I'll tell you what, I like Greg Ellifritz. A lot of the information he puts out I find very sound. There's another instructor that actually did a interview with him and submitted an article, named Cecil Burch. Cecil Burch, he has a company called Immediate Action Combatives and he is very much dialed into just the short range, a realistic approach to dealing with a situation in where your near contact distance or contact distance in such a manner that regardless of your age and almost your physical condition, you can do things that lessen the chances that you're going to be taken out of the fight immediately. Basically, you can pick your skills and use them as a speed bump in order to gain some time and then turn the odds back into your favor. So I follow him, anything by Craig Douglas. Another guy named Paul Sharp. These guys, they blog, they post on Facebook and I pretty much read everything that they do very carefully. Tom Gibbons, y'all have heard me talk about him multiple times. With range master, he has a monthly newsletter. Always got some good articles in that. Another person that I follow is Carl Wren KR training. He is a retired college professor, grand master IPSC shooter and a basically a full time trainer. Just very, very, very bright. Very articulate. Very analytical. I just kinda listen to what these guys have to say and they're not all guys.

Steve: 49:36 Melody is someone whenever she posts something, she especially kind of tuned in to the perhaps a female perspective on self defense. She's a relatively small female and what she has done and can do, she's very-

Mike: 49:53 Who's that?

Steve: 49:54 In to Melody Lauer.

Mike: 50:00 Lauer?

Steve: 50:02 Lauer. LAUER I believe.

Mike: 50:05 And then what was Cecil Burch's training program called?

Steve: 50:11 Immediate Action Combatives.

Mike: 50:15 Okay.

Steve: 50:15 Yeah, very, very, very articulate. Very articulate, I mean everything he says is very insightful and it's doable. There's no cool ninja commando stuff in his program. It's largely based upon common sense. He's got outstanding martial arts background in addition to his firearms background. He's a ... Golly, he's a ... I'm not sure how many stripes he has, but he's a black belt in Brazilian jiu jitsu under Megaton. And so-

Mike: 50:52 Where is he at? Missouri?

Steve: 50:54 Out of Phoenix, Arizona.

Mike: 50:57 Oh Phoenix, okay.

Steve: 50:59 Phoenix, Arizona. Matter of fact, he's not too far from Ernest Langdon. He and Ernest are acquainted. I try to read that stuff all the time. I'd rather kinda learn a lot of that material through their experience as opposed to my experience, 'cause you know what, a lot of experience I've gained is a kind of specific to me and some of it has been kind a painful acquiring so, I'd rather, I like to read that kinda stuff and say "oh wow, this guy found himself in that situation. This is how he dealt with it, or this is how he or she believed they could have dealt with it better. Okay." I filed that away in my mental Rolodex which means that okay, I've seen this. This is something that I can use to benefit myself if I find myself in what appears to be a like scenario.

Mike: 51:52 You know that's some good stuff. I was pulling a lot of these up as you were talking about 'em. This is something that we should start doing, Stan. Start recommending some of these, some of the people that we follow, and some of the other companies that we're dealing with now.

Stan: 52:16 Yeah, I love that.

Steve: 52:17 There's a lot of good instructors out there and one of the things that I've noticed a trend towards is that we're seeing more of the, how should I say this, works for practical self defense scenarios. When I first started training which was in 1993, the premise was that the guy was always gonna have a revolver held at belly level and he's gonna be wearing a ski mask. Okay so that's how we always trained and everything that we ever shot was a guy like that. And then we got in to the whole tactical side of that, which was cool. Tactical carbines, shotguns, team tactics, high risk entry, vehicle defense, did a bunch of that. And that was cool too. But, I always kind of saw myself when I did this, I think I'm kind of like a grownup kid here. I'm having a great time and I'm sure some of these skills could be useful to me at some point, but I'm not sure exactly when.

Steve: 53:24 Now we're seeing a trend where we have so much video out there, John Corriea has done a wonderful job of a, and hopefully I pronounced his name correctly, of getting out a lot of video on situations where people had to defend themselves against perhaps a beat down, a stabbing, a robbing, a kidnapping. Now we can kinda see what's happening in these real life situations. And so our training now has become more specific to dealing with those kind of situations which I think this is probably one of the best times ever for a concealed carrier to be investing in training.

Stan: 54:07 That's right.

Steve: 54:14 [crosstalk 00:54:14] There's a lot of good stuff out there, a lot of good stuff out there. Sorry I interrupted.

Mike: 54:18 That's all right. Just Stan wanted to, you had sent a text saying you wanted to cover, you wanted to address some email or something?

Stan: 54:26 Yeah, just real quick. Mike and I, we always suggest you guys call in and give us some feedback on the podcast and all the stuff that we're doing to help you become your own risk manager. So real quick, want to give a shout out to a few people starting off with Clip Beasley, he's a supportive one, his quote was "Today I unlocked my phone and the start of your podcast, it began playing." He was really excited, he listened to it. He says he really appreciates the things that we're doing and it's very positive, our association. He kinda gave us a big shout out for what we doing with the podcast and said kudos. Then we have Michael W. From North Carolina. He's a former law enforcement officer. He retired from North Carolina state LEO and he says that "I gained a lot of insight from your messages. I recently switched from," I'm not gonna name the company, "and have gained more from CCW Safe in a month than I did from them in almost two years. Please continue to podcast."

Stan: 55:43 And then finally, from J Ralsh in Virginia, it's a pretty long one, I'm not gonna read all of it, but he said, "Gentlemen, I want to let you know I'm enjoying the new podcast. Informative, interesting, and continue drill down the critical factors of self defense. Same goes for the articles, videos, and online training you provide." He had a story where, following listening to the podcast, he actually had a incident, a road rage incident and a guy jumped out who had, getting in front of him. He jumped out and started coming back toward his car. He had positioned himself tactically already and he put it in reverse and backed away. And then he did 20 feet first and then kept coming 20 more feet until the guy got frustrated and got back in his car. He said, then is quote states, "I want to let you know your hard work and dedication has paid off. Education is key for CCW Safe carriers and most don't have nearly enough as they should. Keep up the good work and thank you for what you do for the community."

Stan: 56:45 So I want to let you guys know we appreciate that. Keep sending in your stories. We love to hear that you know you're using your head to avoid these incidents. You're planning ahead so not to be in these situations and you're not launching yourself into deadly force situations when you have the power to remove yourself. So thanks a lot for those who are listening and having successful outcomes and not changing their lives with a deadly force incident.

Mike: 57:16 Yeah, that's awesome to hear. We love hearing those stories because it's just awesome to hear that people are, they're getting something out of the articles, out of the podcast, so forth. So yeah, keep those coming in.

Mike: 57:32 All right, well we're right at about an hour. Anybody have anything to add?

Steve: 57:38 I tell you what, I thought this was a good topic. I know it is not real sexy in terms of, okay you just need to be able to secure your gun and everything, but think it's really important and I hope this is of some benefit to our listeners.

Mike: 57:59 And I think it's something, it's just not, it's something that a lot of people don't think about and a lot of people may not want to think about it, but like you said, it is very important. You have to think about all these things we've talked about today.

Mike: 58:19 Steve, thanks for coming on again. I'm sure we'll, well I'll see you next, I'll see you Monday, right?

Steve: 58:25 Yes, sir.

Mike: 58:27 And Stan, I will see you next week.

Stan: 58:31 Yes, sir. [crosstalk 00:58:34]

Mike: 58:35 All right. You guys take care.

Steve: 58:35 Okay guys. Be safe out there.

Stan: 58:35 Thank you.

Mike: 58:35 Bye, take care.